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All,
My thoughts (not that you probably really care) after a brief foray into Q last year. It WAS fun while it lasted but, there was just too much “static” about “rules”
Now, based on what it would take to get me really interested enough to switch from what I most enjoy to something I would enjoy as much or more. I offer these comments to get the discussion started. And Please, Please don’t hold up the FAI as the end all resource for the only possible repository of worthwhile ideas regarding rules.1. The distinction between A and B is pointless in that it is simply a proliferation of what are already too many model classes trying to interest a declining client base (contestants).
2. The concept of flying in “rounds’ as in the FAI format makes it difficult to attract the core AMA only flyer who typically sees the format as an anathema.
3. The openness of the current “Q” model rules is a sound approach encouraging experimentation in design and construction, but as Dan Berry has pointed out, the handwriting is on the wall. Hi tech factory built models are already on the market for purchase. Factory building stifles design innovation because of the vested interest in expensive tooling for low volume production. Change is resisted. Besides the rules as written are already pointing to a very narrow bracket of models.
4. Electric B has a lot of interest for me personally because the design lanes are wide open. Small?, large? build what you like, figure out how to power it and bring it to fly. Really big power systems are gonna weigh a LOT. Down the road it will sort itself out.
5. Maybe more flights or progressive maxes a la Mulvihill would be interesting to try but _NO ROUNDS_.
6. I suspect From previous discussions here that motor run times will ultimately end up being self limiting as long as they are less than say, 20-25 seconds (models will either go O.O.S. or off pattern and crash). longer runs will probably be usefull for scratch built balsa models and shorter runs for faster hi tech factory models. That’s just speculation.
8. Don’t forget, that the most successful and popular free flight model (maybe next to HLG) in the last 20 years is P-30 and NOT E-36 (it was a nice try though).
9. Going a step farter and looking at P-30 Lets start with a minimum weight of 100 grams, a maximum span of 2,5 meters, and how about auto surfaces, yes?, no?
Let the brick batts begin to fly!
Cheers!With the progression of the modeler and the model in mind consider this:
AMA A – Locked down model, any size , any power, 10 sec. motor runs, 5 sec. fly offs
AMA B – VIT/AR no Bunt, any size ,any power, same motor runs.
F1Q – Current rulesThe AMA A class gives the entry level modeler a good starting point that is not overly complicated, that can be flown without the pressure of rounds or a schedule that makes it difficult to get help from more experenced fliers. With a 90 gram battery the “A” model could be flown in all of the classes giving the novice more opportunities to fly. The open approach to models and power make it easy for the CD and keep it interesting for all of us.
The next logical step is to apply some auto surfaces that will increase the complexity and the performance. If and when the modeler becomes bored with VIT/AR models he or she can graduate to the Bunt.
The biggest stumbling blocks that we can put in the path of the potential new flier are rules that limit their options and and complexities that are better understood after gaining some experence. Any power flier can offer advice on triming a locked down model regardless of their experence with electric power. The proposition offers a good starting point with a natural progression of skill and preformance. The best advice that I believe I have ever been given in the sport was from Chuck Groth. He told me to pick a model or design that captivates with a proven history and stick with it, developing your model into a winner. This approach allows us to take advantage of the rich history of existing proven designs that will give the begginer many options to succeed and grow in the sport.Jim,
PERFECT!!!!
This approach pretty much answers all concerns.
It is obvious you’ve put a lot of thought into it.
I suspect Electric B will end up being the most popular with “A” a close second.
Cheers! (and good on ya)Agree with all of the above. I believe that Electric ff has a natural appeal right now and hope that whatever rules are concocted in 2011 that they are rational and written by those who have experience in the event. Given the behavior of the contest board I’m not too hopeful.
It would be good to see demonstration EP models having some success at the local level so that modelers can properly come to an interest on their own. Right now there are four us us in the MMM club here in Colorado who have a developing interest and it would be good if the rules are left refreshingly simple as they are at the moment. Yes, it’s true that models such as the Maverick far exceed the performance requirement (max time) however this isn’t much different than many other classes especially in the FAI world.
In our area there are not enough EP flyers right now that performance requirements for Electric would be an issue. I wonder if it is practical thing to allow some local field rules (within reason) be variable and established by the CD and or contestants. By that I mean that there could be a menu of rules regarding motor run and Max length limited such that any attending contestant could easily conform to them. THis idea exists in the Classic Towline Glider rules which allow the CD to modify flight length requirements depending on local conditions so the above has some precedence. The main thing is to keep rules simple and understandable for the typical AMA contestant. All you have to do is to try and understand the SAM LMR rules as an example of off-putting “lawyering”
My son is a burgeoning power flyer and by that he means Gas engines. He is building a SHOCHER 600 with a Nelson .29. After I finish my Maverick I also have the same kit and I want to make it into an Electric B version. It will be interesting to see them performing on the same field as this would provide a good demonstration of the class I think. I should mention that our club flys on a 27,000 acre field and we’re pretty active with about 15-20 contestants in each contest. That said most contests do not have a single gas ship being flown where they used to be a pretty active FAI oriented club some years ago. Good hunting ground for electric conversions, eh?
To Randys point
I like what Jim has set forth. However the one thing I would like to see is an option for catagories. We out in the west have the luxury of large fields, I would like to see a catagoty for 180 second maxes with say run times of 15 seconds with flyoffs starting at 10.
We (the US) have very little say in what happens in F1Q as we are just one country amongst the many that make up the FAI community. (Trust me I know as I was a pattern flyer until the FAI dictated turnaround pattern killed american style ballistic pattern). But we have a big say in our AMA rules so lets all work together and see if we can’t come up with a cohesive set of proposals for the next rule cycle.
There is a provision currently for the CD to use their discretion in regards to motor runs based on feild and weather conditions. And although there currently is not a provision for catagories in the Electric events I see no reason not to have them. Personally I would be dissipointed to make it to Lost Hills and only fly for two min. Flexibility is key to growth.
Perhaps part of this issue is to educate Contest Directors regarding the Electric events. It may be different in other parts of the country but in our area CD’s wouldn’t have any idea about EPFF unless informed by the contestant(s) It might be a good thing to prepare a “CD Tutorial and FAQ” that could be absorbed at the field for that purpose. This might also forestall uninfomed rule making by the Contest Board as well.
A CD tutorial and FAQ document for EPFF is a very good idea. Although with the above proposal the only knowledge required for the AMA events is knowing the difference in a locked down model and an auto surface model. Still the perceived complexities are there until they are explained away. Simply worded rules would also help the CD and any potential new competitors. Good suggestion Randy. Might make a good Digest article.
A Digest article is a great way to communicate with likely CD’s and EP contestants. I know Don DeLoach is actively on the hunt for materiel. If I knew enough I would write it but as I’m just beginning the first power system installation on my Maverick I’m very short of know how and experience.
Jim,
A good example of CD-imposed rule deviations was the 2009 Nats:In the case of AMA Electric B the motor run was dropped to 5 seconds starting from the 7th flight on. This worked out well because it prevented a marathon flyoff. The contest ended on the winner’s 9th flight.
In the case of Electric A the motor run was allowed to stay at 15 seconds from the 7th flight on instead of dropping to 10 seconds per the rules. This was probably not a good idea because it could have resulted in a marathon flyoff. That did not happen because some of the contesting flyers went to 10 seconds anyway in a record attempt.
The point is that CD’s have leeway under rule 6.2. So, I don’t think categories are needed because the CD can always up the motor runs and maxes on a big field if that’s what the flyers want and advance notice is given.
I did not know that Electric-B at the NATS was run with the 5 sec engine.
The rule book only drops the motor to 10 secs. I had not seen anything posted that the event would be run different than the rule book. When was the decision to change it made? It is kinda hard to plan ahead when you don’t know what the rules are gonna be. I knew that I wasn’t gonna fly at 10 secs for 2 minutes again and didn’t even enter.Dan,
Most of us, myself included, did not know about the rules deviations until the day of the contest. We looked at the back of our pre-printed timecards and saw that the motor runs had been decided, and the flyoffs were at 5 seconds.I agree, more notice should have been given.
Wow. I know that we discussed this last year after the Nats. It was pointed out that just arbitrarily changing the rules at the event wasn’t allowed and could cause problems. Interesting.
I think the fact that Dan did not know that the rules had been changed proves the point that catagories are a good idea. I for one do want to drive 600 miles to Lost Hills not knowing what the event rules are going to be.
I agree that the CD should have some discretion to change the rules but that should be more dictated by weather conditions.
I don’t think the CD should be able to change the rules which is counter-productive to say the least. However if there are established motor run and max times to fit the field and/or conditions then a contestant could show up having a chance to see his model conform to the contest at hand.
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