- This topic has 21 replies, 7 voices, and was last updated 14 years, 2 months ago by
.
-
Posts
-
Am-XCup Proposal.
SCAT has drafted the following Am-XCup proposal and will be voted on at our Dec 13 SCAT Holiday Party to determine if the proposal will be enacted for the 2009-2010 season. Comments can be shared here, or or directly to me, N89015@aol.com. I would be interested in hearing from the Clubs / CDs of the 30 current AmCup contests that would drop out of the AmCup program due to the increased of the 25$ sanction fee to50$ for 2009.
The current AmCup program will continue as it is. The current Perpetual Trophies, first place trophies and certificates will be maintained for the AmCup program. One change is the sanction fee will be raised to 50$ for all 30 AmCup contests.
The mission statement for the AmCup remains:
To foster the development of flyers and models across North America in the FAI FF. This coast-to-coast competition requires flyers to attend multiple contests each year in the United States and Canada in order to win.Am-XCup will be a Provisional addendum to the current AmCup program. The purpose of the Am-XCup:
To selected the best North American flyers in FAI FF over a two year period using the most competed AmCup Contests. This Provision program is to provide data as to the practicality and applicability of such a selection program for future USA Team Selection Program consideration.Summary
7 counted contests of 16 contests over two years, 2009 thru 2010.
16 contests or 8 contests a year and 12 contests or 6 contests a year formats were discussed. In F1A&B, the top 15 AmCup flyers score in 4 or more contests in a year, it’s likely they fly more but do not always score points so do not show. In F1C it’s the top 10 flyers. 8 contests a year was selected has “stretched goal”. Should the Am-XCup continue past 2010, the number contests will be reviewed.First, Second and Third place awards of trophies, certificates and cash of $500, $300, $200 will be awarded. While we flyers are not motivated by money, cash does spark interests. We also do not want to make or buy perpetual trophies at this time, and the cash prize discriminates Am-XCup from the AmCup. Even with the increased sanction fee, SCAT will still need to supplement the AmCup and Am-XCup costs.
In the body of the draft rules, the xx, yy in the brackets in front of the contests are the F1ABC entrant totals for 2008 and 2007 as a way to define the “most highly competed AmCup contests”.
Because there are greater number of highly competed AmCup contests in the West, the Am-XCup contests are used once in the West and some central and eastern contests are used twice over the two year cycle.
There will be no site restrictions– this is to determine the Best flyer(s) and so the requirement to travel to win to “Foster” FAI FF has been dropped for Am-XCup. However, under this construct, it would be difficult to win without some out of region travel.
While the Am-XCup was conceived in the post finals “change the program” discussion, there is no direct link to the Team Selection Program. SCAT, looking forward seeks to determine if a small select set of highly competitive contests will be supported by the serious FAI FF competitor and so provide actual experience for the post 2010 Finals Team Selection Committee consideration.
Thermals, JIM
RULES: FAI FREE FLIGHT Am X-Cup 2009-2010
Draft #3 Nov. 27, 2008The SCAT Am X-Cup Competition is supplemental & provisional to the AmCup program.
The Am X-Cup’s purpose:
To selected the best North American flyers in FAI FF over a two year period using the most competed AmCup contests. This Provision program is to provide data as to the practicality and applicability of such a selection program for future USA Team Selection Program consideration.1) Am-XCup designated contests must be flown in accordance with the provisions of the Am Cup rules, FAI Sporting Code and as follows:
a) First round max durations will require the current extended flight times as at the next World Championship. Allowances for site and weather will be made. The events must have discreet rounds and must be flown from a launch line.
b) There is no Am X-Cup Sanction fee.
Operational cost will be covered by the AmCup program.
[$50 a year sanction fee for all AmCup contests]c) The maximum number of Am X-Cup contests is 16 over a 2 year cycle.
The designated contests for the 2009-2010 seasons are:
2009
[xx,yy designates the F1ABC entry totals for 2007 and 2008]
59/55—Feb, Winter Classic, CA
36/38—Mar, SCAT Annual, CA
20/19— End of May, June Skyscraper Challenge, NY
16/15— Last week June, 1st week July, MMM FAI Annual Denver, CO
46/55—1st week Aug, NATS, IN
23/13—2nd week Aug, Huron Cup, Canada
20/24—End Oct, SW Challenge, Las Vegas
30/43—Nov, Patterson, CA2010
[xx,yy designates the F1ABC entry totals for 2007 and 2008]
40/20—Jan, SW Regional, AZ
80/84—Feb, MaxMen , CA
42/44—3rd week May Big Al , CA
20/19— End of May-June, Skyscraper Challenge, NY
16/15—June-July, MMM FAI Annual Denver, CO
46/55—1st week Aug, NATS, IN
19/19— 3rd week Aug, Tangent, OR (which of the two, tbd)
57/60— Oct, Sierra Cup, CA2) Any number of designated contests can be entered and at any contest site.
3) The highest scores from a maximum of 7 contests will be counted.
4) Points are scored a follows:
1st Place 25 points
2nd Place 20 points
3rd Place 15 points
4th Place 10 points
5th Place 5 points
5) Extra “Bonus” points are scored on the number of contestants in an event:
1-5 0 points
6-8 +1 point
9-11 +2 points
12-14 +3 points
15-17 +4 points
18-20 +5 points
21 or more +6 points6) Ties for first place in the final scoring are settled by counting eight contests in the totals or more if necessary. If this does not settle a tie, then taking the scores from the seven best contests and multiplying by the total number of contestants in the seven contests in the competitor’s event determines the winner.
7) ‘Entry’ means – entrant making one official flight and scoring at least 50% of the regular round (ie no fly-off ) winning time except for flyers that placed in the top ten in the 2007 or 2008 AmCup standings will be counted regardless of time if.
8) The three Am X-Cup first, second and third place winners will receive a trophy, certificate and $500, $300 and $200. Awarded will be given at the SCAT AmCup banquet on Saturday night of the 2011 Max Men International Contest in California.
I laud the work Jim & others have put into this AM-XCup proposal.
Presenting it in this timely fashion should allay the concerns that have
been aired in regards the ongoing status of the AMCUP program.Happy Holidays,
LeeLooking at the proposal above, we have, over two years, 6 contests in California (no repeats), repeat contests in New York, Colorado and Indiana, and single contests in Arizona, Canada, Los Vegas and Oregon. There is also a rule that 7 contests are counted for the score – forcing some Californians to travel.
Let’s take a person living in the periphry (outside California) – say in New York. The New York site is practically down the road. Indiana and Canada are a long day drive in each direction, and California, or any other distant location is a $400 flight plus a car rental. So, if one attends the Nats twice, one California contest per year is required to reach seven contests. My point is that counting 7 contests for the am-Xcup score is expensive and to place well one should attend even more. Suggesting, instead, that 5 contests count for the overall score, and that the best 3 contests in one location would be counted (i.e. Lost Hills).
Foregoing physical prizes is excellent, as there is enough stuff to shlep along. The prizes 3*($500+$300+$200) seem to exhaust the expected income of 2*30*$50. Maybe the second and third prizes could be a bit smaller, to allow for some administrative wiggle room.
In this financing scheme 30 contests per year (including the mini events and F1Q) are underwriting the top three F1ABC winners. So why not include the mini events + F1Q at the 16 am-Xcup contests for free (no prizes). Four more winners (F1GHJQ) will each have their one minute of glory at the 2001 Maxmen banquet. Alternatively, raise the am-Xcup fees to $187.5 and keep the rest at $25.
Aram,
All good points and issues we discussed. The contest selection and numbers were done to be as inclusive as possible of the Central and Eastern flyers. In my initial Extreme thinking, the historical entries would have selected Lost Hills and the NATs– this is to select the Best. The second part of the mission was to run a program for future TSP consideration so a more reasonable contest section was made.
The one critical portion I still think about is the 16 contests, less might be better. But for now the proposal stands.
Thanks for you will thought comments. JIM
Is the increased fee, from $25.00 to $50.00, intended to go towards the cash prizes for the Am-X Cup? If so, what is the incentive for the folks who run the standard Am Cup meets that didn’t get picked to also be Am-X Cup meets to fund something they aren’t a part of?
Jim and all Scatters,
Bill is right. Sponsoring clubs should not pay higher sanction fees in order to give cash awards to the very few who fly F1ABC “seriously”. As the VP of the PMAC and SWR Modelers Association I know that most of our members will not look kindly upon paying winners of the Am-XCup $500.00 by raising the AmCup sanction fee 100% to achieve this. As in most clubs our members are not interested in FAI flying but are for the BOM rule and flying AMA, NFFS and SAM events. Flying with models that cost more than $1,000.00 each to win money is a very bad idea to them and will hurt how the FAI community is perceived. The result of this would be that FAI flying is seen as “elitist” and “it’s just about money”. Freeflight does not need a money award incentive. It is about having fun and getting satisfaction out of flying well and perhaps the “honor” of flying better than your peers. Getting the names of the winners publicized, giving the winners certificates and applause when they are up on the podium will be plenty.
Peter
Bill and Peter make very good points as do Faust Parker and Reid Simpson in the SCAT newsletters.
Two thoughts come to mind.
“If it ain’t broke don’t fix it.”
“Be careful what you wish for”Cheers!
Gee, money gets more play than the site selections. The feedback I asked for from CDs/Clubs is would they drop out of AmCup program due to the 50$ increase?
I have previously explain why we chose to use cash rewards. Now the indirect question is, why the $1000 amount? It has to be sufficient to be noticed, otherwise the Am-XCup will be just another set of results tagged onto the AmCup’s results.
AmCup requires nothing of the flyers to participate and little from the organizer– $25 check and send your scores in, most now send to SEN anyway.
AmCup fee of $25 has not changed for 18 years. It at best breaks even after paying for trophies and the 1st place winner banquet. My score keeping salary has not changed over the past 18 years either, zero. I also pay for the my AmCup banquet. No one is getting rich hear.
SCAT is looking forward and has put out this proposal. Clubs can vote with their check books. I would suggest clubs take a more forward thinking approach. If an addition $25 bucks is the tilting point, then put a surcharge on the FAI events, seek a sponsor / donation.
If the argument is the principle of subsidizing the Am-XCup then time will tell. At the begining of the AmCup, we got similar comments about the $25. Time has proven the AmCup has had a positive impact.
Will the Am-XCup have a similar positive impact? I hope so and I do ask for support during the start up, provisional year. If I’m wrong and there is no 2011-2012 Am-XCup, the AmCup fee will be re-valuated and set to a near break-even amount.
Any deep pockets out there want to donate $1000 or some portion of? If I get a donations(s), we’ll keep the current $25 AmCup fee.
X-Thermals, JIM
For me, at least, the issue is what is the increase in fees going for. If, for example, you were to announce that, due to increased administrative costs for the AmCup, the fee was to go from $25.00 to $50.00, I would have no problem in paying it. The issue here is that folks who put on standard AmCup contests are being told to underwrite something that they are being excluded from, namely, Am-X Cup status for their meets. It is not about the money, rather, it it is about the fairness.
SCAT has done a great job in fostering increased participation in FAI events because of the AM Cup. It has, no doubt, increased competition at many contests. I’m sure our Inter-City meet, which is the longest running FAI contest in the country that I’m aware of, has benefitted.
The AmCup and its derivitive, the AM-X Cup belong to SCAT. The club, obviously, can do whatever it wants with either of these programs. This includes picking whatever meets it wants to serve as Am-X contests. I can’t tell you what contests to include and your reasons for not picking our meet are your business. But by that same token, I can tell you that it irks me that 22 of the 30 Am Cup contest organizers are being told they need to contribute to something they have no role or interest in.PostPosted: Sun Nov 30, 2008 12:19 pm Post subject: Information related to SCAT’s AmCup proposal
Note there are very few very vocal program participants who are advocating that the way we select our teams be changed and I respect them.
But for everyone’s information the majority (90%) of the participants nation wide who took the time to reply to our questionnaire were satisfied in general with the current program format. The percentage of participants from Scat’s district who were satisfied was the same, 90%. Maybe they just like the idea of getting together on the same field at the same time under the same conditions to look their friends in the eye and say lets do it.
I respectfully suggest that the Scat Club take that into consideration when they vote if it’s SCAT’s real goal to change the way we determine those who will represent the United States at World Championships.
An after thought. Why, if you really wanted to choose the “best” team, don’t you count all the scores from your designated list of contests? Who needs a second chance? Think about it.
Thank you for your time,
Paul Crowley
Posted: Sun Nov 30, 2008 11:22 pm Post subject: Reposted Paul Crowley’s post to keep in the stream Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
PostPosted: Sun Nov 30, 2008 12:19 pm Post subject: Information related to SCAT’s AmCup proposalNote there are very few very vocal program participants who are advocating that the way we select our teams be changed and I respect them.
But for everyone’s information the majority (90%) of the participants nation wide who took the time to reply to our questionnaire were satisfied in general with the current program format. The percentage of participants from Scat’s district who were satisfied was the same, 90%. Maybe they just like the idea of getting together on the same field at the same time under the same conditions to look their friends in the eye and say lets do it.
I respectfully suggest that the Scat Club take that into consideration when they vote if it’s SCAT’s real goal to change the way we determine those who will represent the United States at World Championships.
An after thought. Why, if you really wanted to choose the “best” team, don’t you count all the scores from your designated list of contests? Who needs a second chance? Think about it.
Thank you for your time,
Paul Crowley
_________________
Jim Parker
NFFS FAI Forum MasterAm-XCup status — sent to SEN for posting as well
I do believe there is confusion with the initial, SEN 1264, Nov 17 Am-XCup message that was EXTREME, ie an all new AmCup. PLEASE understand the current proposal, SEN 1269, Nov 29 is not extreme. In fact, the current AmCup stays in place 100% as it is. The Am-XCup will be an addendum to the AmCup should SCAT decide to proceed with it which will know Dec13, 2008.
Thanks for to those that have provided feed back Comments fall into five areas.
1. If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it. OK we are not on the side of the road with a smoking engine but the oil light is on. Better, we had buried our model in the hard dirt but it is stalling and not getting better. Time for a trim change! Participation numbers are down and the non-tangible of the excitement for the AmCup competition is down. Only a hand full of flyers set a goal at the beginning of the year to win the AmCup. In discussion with many, most are OK with this. I’ve been coached that the AmCup is still having a positive impact. So, to that end, as previously stated, the existing AmCup stay’s 100% in place.
2. What about my contest? Or there not enough contests or there are too many contests. We’ll never get 100% agreement. I think we did a good job of balancing the best contests equably across the geographic USA and Canada. Should Am-XCup continue beyond 2010, we’ll reassess the contest selection.
3. Am-XCup is SCAT’s way of driving FAI FF team selection program change. Yes, but SCAT does not have any authority to make TSP changes. Am-XCup Mission statement makes this clear. Am-XCup is provisional, ie an experiment. It may be a big success or it may fail but in the end, we’ll have some facts and date for future TSP discussion.
4. Using prize money as the reward puts some people off. Some like it. As previously explained, because this is an experiment, perpetual trophies do not make sense and so we’ll keep with the prize award. I commit that should I win a cash reward; I’ll donate it to the Jr team program.
5. Increase of the $25 AmCup sanction fee is subsidizing the Am-XCup prize award. Yes. In my SEN 1269 Am-XCup proposal message, I asked for clubs / CDs to contact me if they would not participate in the 2009 AmCup program if the fee was increased to $50. I got only one reply that a club would not want to pay the $50 but it was not clear they would not.With that said, we have reduce the prize award amount. Along with this, here is my proposal and request. I am putting up $300 of my money and I’m looking for five other flyers or clubs to match that to provide the 2009-2010 Am-XCup awards of $300 + $200 + $100. If I get five other generous souls, the 2009 AmCup fee will be $30, a small increase to cover inflation and small losses of the last three AmCup programs. I’m also open to other prizes should anyone wish to make such a donation.
Jim Parker
SCAT president
Jim,
The Am-XCup rules were written to replace the present AmCup in 2 years . The Am-XCup rules were published here on 11/27 and about 2 weeks later a small SCAT group already wants to vote on it. It was very hastily conceived, e.g., you say that the Soutwest Regionals in 2007/2008 had 40/20 flying F1ABC while actually we have had 41/40 guys and gals flying in these 2 years – not even counting the sportsmen from overseas. The SWR has been an America’s Cup since its invention close to 20 years ago – but you want to count it only every other year for the Extreme Cup. Eloy is one of the largest and best flying fields in America – but you exclude 3 of the present America’s Cup contests over the 2-year cycle. To make matters worse you want us to pay SCAT $200 as sanction fees to have “extreme” prize money for your AM-XCup in lieu of the present $100 – but at the same time exclude 3 Eloy contests from your extreme AmCup. Talk about paying “taxes” without representation. That in itself is a reason for a “revolution”. This proposed set-up would definitely cut down the numbers of flyers at our Arizona contests and is therefore contrary to the Mission Statement of the America’s Cup.
The present America’s Cup is NOT broken. If attendance is down then it is because of the escalating cost of travel and of the hi-tec models and then of course because of flyers getting older. Please do not reduce the number of well run contests. Freeflight does NOT need money incentives – especially if the money is supposed to come from clubs who will not even host the AM-XCup contests. Keep the fee at $25 for the regular America’s Cup contests that will have less entries because you want them to flock to the Am-XCup contests. The Am-XCup has a 2 year cycle – why change from the normal 1-year cycle with rewards every year at the SCAT/MaxMen banquet if you real intention is not mainly to change the team selection process?
The America’s Cup belongs to ALL FAI flyers in North America – SCAT owns it but you should not take it hostage. Give the flyers who consistently fly FAI and the clubs who sponsor the FAI contests some say in this discussion – and let us NOT do it in this hurried way.
The America’s Cup deserves better!Peter
I’m with Peter on this one. You can’t draw the conclusion that the AmCup is broken just because we don’t see the numbers at meets for the last couple years that we used to. The simple fact is that FAI participation numbers are down everywhere. Look at the FAI Program. Some of this is due to attrition, some due to fuel costs and some due to modelers not wanting to spend big money on store-bought models. Regardless, this results in decreased numbers across the board.
Our Inter-City meet, likewise, has been hosting America’s Cup competition since the AmCup was formed. Our meet will be hosting the 60th anniversary this summer and will be the last contest at Muncie before the field is essentially shut down for Free Flight during the R/C Nats. We aren’t on the Am-X calendar for this year or next. As I’ve posted earlier, not having Am-X status for 2009 or 10 will certainly hurt our numbers. There are only so many travel dollars folks are willing to shell out.
With all this, I have to ask the question as to what is really driving this push? The FAI Program questionnaire came back indicating a 90% approval of the current program format. Is this need for a test “program” via the Am-X competition being driven by the 10% who don’t like the current format? And, of those who want something different, what is behind their discontent?
Finally, if those who don’t like the program think either they or someone else should be on the team, who, then, is on the team that shouldn’t be?
See where I’m going with this? We have 9 people who made the team fair and square. If the team composition is what grinds some, then they should come forward and say so. Don’t erect a shadow program to fix something that works.FWIW, FAI participation, especially in F1A, is actually up on some of the european Wold Cup contests. This is mainly due to very strong junior numbers from former eastern european and balkan countries. but also senior numbers are up in some cases. a lot of new fliers are drawn to the sport in europe mainly due to technology. composite construction and vast involvement of electronics and computers is an attractive combination and we have some some new names in the scene lately.
so i would be interested to figure out why we don’t see the same trend in the US?
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.