Home › Forums › Free Flight › Electric Free Flight › AMA Electric "B" Rules
- This topic has 64 replies, 8 voices, and was last updated 13 years, 12 months ago by ARAM SCHLOSBERG.
08/10/2008 at 3:20 am #40920
Electric fliers far and wide,
There has been much discussion about a rules change, even an “emergency” rules change. I would like to open a discussion here inviting all that participate in the class to provide an opinion. I believe that Electric Freeflight will play a vital role in the future growth of our sport and we should take this subject very seriously. It may be as simple as reducing the motor run, and it may not be. If we are going to initiate a rules change lets get it right and begin with an indepth discussion.
My opinion: I do not fly anything but electric. I love it, nothing but two min. maxes, quiet, no mess and lots of power. “B” has no restrictions other than motor run times, you can get as creative as you want. Other than the motor run times it is perfect, no limits on design or power. But just reducing the motor run to 5 sec. will be a temporary fix. My next model will max consistently on 5 sec. motor runs, and I will not be alone. After three 5 sec. runs it will need to drop to 4 ect. untill we start droping.
E-36 is just the opposite, a formula class that is very difficult to fly yet we try to sell it as an entry level class. This troubles me more than “B” and it needs to be fixed. If we hope to grow this division of freeflight our entry level event needs to be easier and more exciting to fly. The restriction on the wing span and the min. weight are too restrictive resulting in uninspiring performance. We need to drop the min. weight on E-36, cargo is not for beginers.
I am interested in your opinion.08/10/2008 at 2:15 pm #46106
Does this mean I should cancel my order for the 1300 sq. in. Satellite kit?
Cheers!, Pete08/10/2008 at 3:12 pm #46107
A broad, open discussion is definitely in order.
Electric B has overrun the specs. You are correct that 5 secs for 2 minutes will be a short-lived fix, thus not fixing anything. I’m not certain that even shorter motor runs will really solve anything and still maintain interest. F1Q has the advantage of knowing when the motor run will shorten and force launches into a small window. At least there is an end in sight.
For those readers who weren’t at the NATS, here’s a quick discharge.
Weather was decent, but air-picking was very tricky. AB Gas had ONE flyer make 7 maxes. The electrics just rose above it and maxed.
Jim, I don’t have a real answer. I did some lobbying this week, expessing some opinions. Of course that’s really out of character for me. Emergency change to 5 secs isn’t the answer. Longer maxes on a 2 minute field only serve to aggravate. CD discretion might be an idea. I can say that I’m going to work on my setup—think Marval. I’m not looking to get a more powerful rig. I don’t see a point to it.
We need some thoughts here.08/10/2008 at 6:51 pm #46108
F1Q, And I suppose “E-B”, are already performing far beyond what anyone would have imagined 4 or 5 years ago. Like Mulvihill, where you gonna fly ’em. The BOM rule is non operational for Q and it’s only a matter of (short) time before converted F1J’s or F1C’c dominate th field. 5 second or less motor runs will only force the issue to go that way sooner. Electric B will take a little longer, at least as long as the BOM rule remains. Overly restrictive rules lead to stagnation and possibly loss of interest due to complexity. Coupe, F1P, And F1J seem to work pretty well with relatively simple rules. Perhaps the battery weight for Q is too generous, So a lower battery weight coupled with say, a 10 second motor run would be a place to start. Perhaps a span limitation like F1P and HLG would be worth looking into. I personally don’t have much interest in E-36 because I think the rules produce something that ignores the possibilities. It’s actually easier to get something much better using the F1Q or Electric B rules. You can’t stck you head in the ground an ignore technological progress.
The problem seems to be how to limit performance in a reasoable way tha won’t kill the bugeoning interest. The horse is already out of the barn.
My 2 cents worth plus my own penny for my thoughts.
Cheers!, Pete, (Luddite at heart, but liking what progress brings all the same)08/11/2008 at 4:14 pm #46109
At the ’08 Nats, Jim Jennings posting 24 (twenty four) flyoff flights with 10 second(?) motor run and a 2 minute max(?). It seems that we should reconsider the B-electric rules in light of this outstanding performance. My thoughts, in brief, are:
1. Conform the B-electric spects to F1Q. The only implication is limiting the LiPoly battery weight to 90 grams. (Nicads are 125 gram, but who cares). This will allow flying your B-electric in both events.
2. Personally, I think the motor run should be cut to 15 or even 10 seconds seconds with a 2-minute maxes. If one sticks with say a 15 second motor run, then the flyoff flights should be 3-minute maxes. The first flight with 15 seconds, the second with 10 second and all the rest with a 5 second motor runs Doing a 3-minute max with a 5 second motor run is really hard and these B-electric contests will end with 6-7 flights.
3. Get B-electric as a National Cup event. It will nicely dovetail with F1Q, as noted above, abd be an alternative to E-36. (I’ll look into this).08/11/2008 at 5:20 pm #46110
If you want to conform B electric to F1Q specs then why bother to have “B” at all?
The only real difference then will be rounds or not.
I really am about half serious about the 1300 Satellite.
The rules as they are give a very great deal of leeway for guys like me (and maybe Dan Berry,self professed Luddite) to have a little fun doing something out of the ordinary.
I’d probably build up a gas Super D ship if I didn’t mind the mess and noise so much. “B” electric gives me a place to satisfy my love of big, really big.
Just think, if you ran the motor a full 25 seconds you could likely still see it and if you D/T’d it right off the motor run you mght still make the 2 minute max.
Back to reality, 10 seconds seems a reasonable limit with a 2 minute max. If you force it to 5 seconds you’re pushing hi tech really hard and making it extremely difficult for the Luddite home builder ( like me, and others) and thus killing the interest for many. It’s easy to see what’s on the horizon, performance wise, for someone deeply involved in the class but, at this stage it might be better to concentrate on building a wider participant base.
Cheers!, Pete08/11/2008 at 7:47 pm #46111
A and B electric were defined in terms of the number of NiCad batteries (up to 6 and more than 6). The advantage was that with a change of battery, you could fly both events.
Now, with the availability of Lipolys, F1Q abd E-36, these rules are really obsolete. The first step was to allow Lipolys in B-electric. However, as Jim Jennings points out, we need a mid course correction. Under the current rules, a 1000 Watt models is legal. Conforming it to F1Q will allow cross overs and higher participation.
The 5 second motor run and 3-minute max is extremely difficult to replicate, which is why it’s suggested as the third (repeatable) flyoff round. Obviously, the exact motor runs and maxes should be hammered out amound ourselves.
I’m sympatathetic to your idea of larger electric power model – reflecting B, C and D gas models. They will probably be proposed by someone in the next rule changing cycle or two. My only concern would be to limit their batteries so not to get over performing models like the various RC gliders.08/11/2008 at 9:44 pm #46112
Aram, 10 sec for 2 minutes is not a problem for my poorly trimmed,overweight 88 watt Maverick. 15 secs for 3 minutes in F1Q at NATS wasn’t a problem. My airplane continually heading towards standing water was a problem.3 minute maxes on a 2 minute field hardly makes sense.
I’m running a 400mah battery. I don’t really think LiPos are the culprit here. Outrunner motors make great heaping gobs of power. There is certainly no reason to use NiCads with ’em, but they could carry the weight without too much problem.08/12/2008 at 1:04 am #46113
You just gotta get those floats made!
Cheers!, Pete08/12/2008 at 2:40 am #46114
Lot’s of interesting dialogue. For the record, the model that I flew at Muncie was a back up F1Q. It meets all of the criteria for the class. Personally I had a lot of fun flying a few consecutive maxes because I had nothing else to fly that day. But that is not the case for most people and we need to come to a general consensus that will encourage as many people as possible to come out and fly. I want to see Pete’s 1300 inch Satellite tear up the sky. I want to see Dan’s Marval punch a hole in a cloud. I want to see Bobby Hansford fly an electric model. The class as it is currently defined will let us all have the ability to take our own individual approaches resulting in a wide variety of interesting models. I hope to keep it interesting, I also hope to keep my models. The two minute max is one of the things that convinced me to fly with electric power. I hope to keep the two minute max. The issue is power. Power is relative to the size of the model. If we regulate power we are regulating the size of the model, again I want to see Pete’s Satellite. In my opinion the answer is motor runs reduced to the point that people start to drop. It is the only way to protect the freedom to build what we as individuals want to build. We have three other formula classes to fly, E-36 way too restrictive to even be fun, Elec.”A” is our payload event, and F1Q is a well defined formula event flown to FAI rules. In a very short time we will be bunting and the guys ( and girls ) that prefer that type of flying will have a lot of fun. As we consider the future of Electric Freeflight I would like to encourage everyone to protect the freedoms that AMA Electric B has to offer. I also want you to consider the beginner. I can remember when two minutes on a 15 second motor run was a real challenge.
Consider this: Two flights at 15 seconds / Two flights at 10 seconds/ Two flights at 5 seconds/ Flyoff rounds at 4 seconds.
The only draw back that I can see is that I will have to take up flying Gas to pass the time. 8)08/12/2008 at 12:53 pm #46115
It seems that we all agree on three 15/2 flights (15-second motor runs/2-minute flights) for B-electric. That the flyoff max should be increased to 3-minutes.
You are proposing two 15/3, two 10/3 two 5/3 followed by as many 4/3 you can make. Personally I would like to leave the 5/3 as the repeatable flight, it it’s extremely difficult to make 3-minutes with a 5 second motor run.
So we could have the following:
Two 15, two 10/3 and repeatable 5/3
Or, a shorter version with,
One 15/3, one 10/3 and a repeatable 5/3
The issue boils down to how many flights should a B-electric contest have. If you drop your first 5/3 (which is very likely) under the first format you will fly 8 flights, the second 6 flights. The shorter version is preferable if you are planning on flying other events.08/12/2008 at 1:10 pm #46116Dohrman CrawfordParticipant
I personally think even the flyoff should be two minutes. Down here we just don’t have anywhere to fly that supports a 3 minute flight. Gotta be two minutes [and rc dt probably], for the model to survive.08/12/2008 at 2:19 pm #46117
Cat3 is a 2 minute field.
I don’t think 5 secs for a max is going to be difficult for long.
I’m all for finding a way to end it about 6-7 flights.08/12/2008 at 5:31 pm #46118
There are very few true 3-minute flieds in the States. If the wind is not excessive, one has a good chance of making 3-minute flights if one is prepared to relocate to the point which gives the maximum field depth.
In addition, since the current models is reaching about 400 feet in 15 seconds – corresponding to climb rate of 25 ft/sec, then, with a 2-minute flyoff max one would have to institute a 10/2, 7/2 and a 4/2 (4 second motor run/2-minute max) flights in which a model, in a 4/2 flight would reach (hypothetically) a 100 feet altitude. With a sink rate of 1.2 ft/sec this would correspond to about 83 seconds – under a 2-minute max. With such a short max I think it would require specialized fast climbing models and turn B-electric into an expert event.
A 3-minute max with a 5-second motor run, a hypothetical 125 feet altitude would correspond to 104 seconds for a 3-minute max. The longer max emphasizes both the climb and the glide – which the current Mavrick type models are well equipped to handle.08/12/2008 at 6:16 pm #46119
Aram, I think that we have a misunderstanding. I do not want to increase the flight time above the two min. mark at any point. So far everyone that has contributed is in favor of keeping the two min. max. Dan and Dohrman both make very good points on feild sizes and classifications. I understand your interest in F1Q, and the crossover potential you see here to grow it, but I am interested in keeping them distinctively different. I fly old gas designs for a reason. I believe it will inspire others that can identify with the models to try electric power. There will still be some crossover, but we have in our society two distinctly different kinds of fliers, FAI and Luddites. My goal is to keep both. I intend to fly both. Our rules structure needs to be such that it will not turn the class into a one design or formula event. I see Electric B as a class of diverse models in size, power, and design. I say we regulate motor run times only keeping the 2 min. max. Determine where we want the contest to end and put a 4 sec. motor run at that point.
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