The Golden Age of 1/2A Special Event

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  • #55460
    SIMON BLAKE
    Participant

    I used to build all my TD-powered half-A models with crankcase pressure and bigger venturies — that was before I started using bladders. However, after trying one with suction it didn’t seem to make much difference in performance, so now both my 1/2-A Bounty Hunter and 1/2-A Okie Bird run on suction just fine. The most important thing is to get a good TD. It makes life simpler. For the Golden Age event, I think either system should be allowed as they were back in the day.

    #55461
    Nigel Tarvin
    Participant

    I like the idea of keeping the rules (and the models) simple and in the spirit of the event.

    My thoughts are:
    As for fuel systems…. Suction, crankcase pressure and bladder were all in use during this time period. It was builder choice then and so should be now.
    Glass cloth was around then and as was mentioned, used in small amounts, usually at firewall/skid locations, so should also be acceptable.
    I’m in agreement with no carbon fiber at all. We built succesfully without it back then didn’t we? If you like to build with carbon fiber, there are plenty of other events that do allow it.

    What about covering, Mike? Strictly tissue and silk or will the more modern coverings like Litespan, Polyspan etc be allowed? Not exactly sure when plastic heat shrink coverings hit the scene, but I’m thinking it was well after 1957 and before 1969….much closer to 1969. Will this be allowed?

    Cheers,
    Nigel

    #55462
    Mike Schwartz
    Participant

    I am in the process of writing a updated version of the guidelines. There has been a lot of well through out input which will be considered. As for covering material choice, I see no real advantage in using any of the modern plastic coverings compared to using jap tissue or silk, considering the limit on model size to 1/2A. There may be modelers who would like to build a model for this event, who have never used tissue and dope. Covering material choice will be left to the builders preference. Consideration is being given to allow other COX 1/2A motors besides the T.D. engines. Input is welcome on the use of other 1/2A Cox engines along with the T.D. Fuel systems will be the builders choice, either bladder, pressure or suction. I really appreciate everyone’s time and support to make this new event happen.

    Mike

    #55463
    Roy Smith
    Participant

    So, people who might have already built models having specific fuel systems are not to be inconvenienced by having to change them, but anyone who has built models having composite materials in the motor mount/front end must rebuild them in order to qualify. I still don’t get the objection to a composite front end/motor mount. I can understand no composites in the wing, stab, or fuselage boom – that just turns them into an AMA model – but it doesn’t apply in the same way to the front end. Allowing a composite tube motor mount to hide the bladder in doesn’t make the model, or the rules, more complex – see the rules for the 1/2A Old Favourites event – VERY simple. Locked down models, no composites anywhere but in the motor mount, any Nos-legal 1/2A engine PLUS the TD. A lot simpler than the current proposal. I also don’t see why leave out all the Nostalgia engines or aeroplanes – if people want to fly them, why not? Surely the more people flying the more fun we are going to have.
    Thermals
    Roy

    #55464
    Denny Dock
    Participant

    We don’t need more engines, we don’t need Nostalgia models.1958 to 69 and a TD sounds good to me.
    DDock

    #55465
    Mike Schwartz
    Participant

    Regarding the ban on use of carbon fiber in Golden Age models from 1957 to 1969 is this basic fact. Union Carbide led the development of modern day carbon fiber starting in 1970. Their experimental work to find alternative raw materials led to the introduction of carbon fibers on a commercial level. Union Carbide was issued a patent in 1977. Therefore carbon fiber was not available to be used in models during the 1957 to 1969 time frame, so its use in the Golden Age event is banned. I realize since the late 1970’s carbon fiber found its way into model building, but it cannot be used on models designed in the 1957 to 1969 time frame as the material was simply not available back then. NOS models eligibility end in 1956. Therefore NOS models do not meet the new time frame, so they are not allowed. This is not a new event for NOS models, plain and simple.

    Mike

    #55466
    Roy Smith
    Participant

    Although carbon fibre wasn’t commercially available during the time period in question, other composites certainly were – fibreglass reinforced polyester for one has been in use, and available commercially, since the the mid 50’s. Cyano glue certainly wasn’t available in the proposed time frame – is that to be summarily banned too? Epoxy glues were in their infancy and certainly were no match for what we have available now – must we revert to the inferior types? If we can even obtain them. Vinyl covering films were available, but not the vastly superior polyester films and polyester tissues now available, shall we ban polyester films and tissue? As for the time frame being post-Nostalgia to 1969 – you determined what it should be Mike and then you asked for comments. My proposals have been in the nature of attempting to simplify the rules and open up the competition to as many people as possible. I still don’t see what threat is posed by allowing people to fly earlier designs and engines if they want to, nor what threat is imposed by someone wanting to change the way the engine is mounted (even using different materials for that). I think that our purpose should be to create events that encourage more people to fly, not fewer.
    Thermals
    Roy

    #55467
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    @NigelT wrote:

    Another on my impossibly long list is the 1/2a “Ephemeris” also known as the “Cutie” by Jess Krieser. It fits into this category too (1963) and now there is even more reason to build it! It’s an odd one with an undercambered stab and up thrust.
    But then I tend to like odd airplanes. 😀
    I have the plans and magazine article in digital format if anyone wants copies.
    There was also an FAI Ephemeris (it came first apparently) that I’d like to find plans for….anyone?

    gos, I built two Laser Chasers. I had no luck with the first one so I built a second…….my luck didn’t get any better with the second one! 😯

    Cheers,
    Nigel

    This was one i was going to bring up too……….my work keeps me too busy to get back here often and i’m glad to see the Ephemeris mentioned.
    My Dad built 2 of the FAI versions as AMA gas models but in much lighter versions.
    He dominated the club for a full year with his TD .15 powered version………..then again after refitting it with a ST 15.

    The 1/2A version i started ended up on the sidelines as it inspired me to build a Satellite high thrust version……..Bob Hunter told me in 1972 that they called this high thrust Satellite the “hi-Lite”.
    later on i flew the 1/2A Ephemeris with a hopped up TD .09 which was great power, but the model was wanting even more power.
    Could have easily handled more, but weight becomes such a hinderence when the model lands under DT………….
    I love the way high thrust models get from pt A to pt B, but hated repairs…………..at least with CF in use, the 1/2A Ephemeris could be a dominating model in this event if built light enough.
    The picture attached is my Dad’s winning version with TD .15 with the little monkey in front being me of course.
    It was very light, but you can see that the center section has been repaired (probably twice) and again on the right side that his arm is covering.
    These were great days back then………heck our monthly contests had turnouts almost as big as today’s USFFC’s.



    #55468
    Mike Schwartz
    Participant

    Regarding fiberglass materials which are a composite, there use has been wide spread in model building for decades. Epoxy glue are also a composite material and they have been in use in model building for decades.Ca. glue had its origin in Germany during World War 2. It was used in the German aircraft industry to glue instrument placards on aircraft quickly, there by saving the use of drills and rivets to fasten them. At the end of the war under the War Reparations Act this technology was given to Eastman Kodak to develop for U.S. use. In 1948 Eastman Kodak started research to develop uses for the glue, in 1952 they were given a patent for its use. One of the uses for ca. was to splice motion picture film together. It was marketed by Eastman Kodak, under the Eastman 910 label. In 1969, I was test flying a model at Sepulveda Basin with Jim Scarborugh. Jim was a AMA vice president for a very long time. Jim worked for North American Rockwell on their missile programs. I was flying a 1/2A Satellite and it suffered some damage to the wing L.E. Jim handed me a small tube of glue and said this would fix the break. I looked at the tube and it had the Eastman 910 label on it. The glue fixed the break in seconds. I went to give the glue back to Jim and he told me to keep it as he had more. I took the glue to Bob Hunter later that day and showed it to him. Bob and Bill Hunter did some research and got exclusive use of the glue from Eastman Kodak to use in model building. This led to “Hot Stuff”. The original Eastman Kodak patent ran out in 1972 and then other companies started manufacturing ca. for hobby use. The use of fiberglass cloth or tape to reinforce firewalls, dihedral breaks etc. and epoxy is permitted in the Golden Age event as it is a standard building practice. The use of ca. glue is permitted also for the same reason. The use of modern film materials for covering is also permitted as well as tissue and dope. There seems to be a attempt to nit pick on the permitted use of certain composite materials as some sort of justifiable reason why carbon fiber should be allowed. The use of Carbon fiber material is not allowed at all in the Golden Age event. The time frame for this event is 1-1-1957 to 12-31-1969. It is not open to designs both before or after the time frame. If you want to fly NOS models there is the NOS class to fly in, if you want to fly later designs you can enter AMA events. The event is designed to encourage modelers to built and fly these Golden Age designs following a few simple guidelines.

    Mike

    #55469
    JIM MOSELEY
    Participant

    But it does not offer an outlet for original designs now gathering dust on the shelves…. nor any encouragement for people to exercise their creativity by designing and building something new.
    Or is every one now just content to build somebody else’s ideas from the past?

    Incidentally, if that is the case … are designs published in newsletters during the qualified period also eligible?

    > “if you want to fly later designs you can enter AMA events ” To what purpose? I thought the intent was for models to be flown with TD.049 and Hornets which are now not competitive in AMA events

    #55470
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    @mikeschwartz wrote:

    Regarding fiberglass materials which are a composite, there use has been wide spread in model building for decades. Epoxy glue are also a composite material and they have been in use in model building for decades.Ca. glue had its origin in Germany during World War 2. It was used in the German aircraft industry to glue instrument placards on aircraft quickly, there by saving the use of drills and rivets to fasten them. At the end of the war under the War Reparations Act this technology was given to Eastman Kodak to develop for U.S. use. In 1948 Eastman Kodak started research to develop uses for the glue, in 1952 they were given a patent for its use. One of the uses for ca. was to splice motion picture film together. It was marketed by Eastman Kodak, under the Eastman 910 label. In 1969, I was test flying a model at Sepulveda Basin with Jim Scarborugh. Jim was a AMA vice president for a very long time. Jim worked for North American Rockwell on their missile programs. I was flying a 1/2A Satellite and it suffered some damage to the wing L.E. Jim handed me a small tube of glue and said this would fix the break. I looked at the tube and it had the Eastman 910 label on it. The glue fixed the break in seconds. I went to give the glue back to Jim and he told me to keep it as he had more. I took the glue to Bob Hunter later that day and showed it to him. Bob and Bill Hunter did some research and got exclusive use of the glue from Eastman Kodak to use in model building. This led to “Hot Stuff”. The original Eastman Kodak patent ran out in 1972 and then other companies started manufacturing ca. for hobby use. The use of fiberglass cloth or tape to reinforce firewalls, dihedral breaks etc. and epoxy is permitted in the Golden Age event as it is a standard building practice. The use of ca. glue is permitted also for the same reason. The use of modern film materials for covering is also permitted as well as tissue and dope. There seems to be a attempt to nit pick on the permitted use of certain composite materials as some sort of justifiable reason why carbon fiber should be allowed. The use of Carbon fiber material is not allowed at all in the Golden Age event. The time frame for this event is 1-1-1957 to 12-31-1969. It is not open to designs both before or after the time frame. If you want to fly NOS models there is the NOS class to fly in, if you want to fly later designs you can enter AMA events. The event is designed to encourage modelers to built and fly these Golden Age designs following a few simple guidelines.

    Mike

    No Carbon fiber?………….all this talk about fuel systems and other crap just killed my need for speed here……….I’m out.
    This was a simple design for the years event and you guys have just take it over the line with complications that should not even be open for discussion.
    Yes i could hide a piece of carbon fiber in a sandwiched spar construction, but what’s the point.
    Leave the rules game for the R/C nuts
    We’re not talking about huge power jobs here.
    Just a little friendly competition in a dying sport.

    #55471
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    @mikeschwartz wrote:

    The idea of the event is to get these Golden Age models back in the air and have new one’s built without endless rules and restrictions. It’s a simple fun event to fly.

    Mike

    Just so long as we don’t use carbon fiber………….highly contadictive 🙄

    #55472
    Mike Schwartz
    Participant

    If someone wants to design and build a new design, this event is not for them. New designs can be flown in AMA classes. plans published in newsletters during the 1957 to 1969 time frame are allowed as long as they meet the guidelines. Be prepared to provide proof. The comment ” if you want to fly later designs you can enter AMA events” was taken out of context. That statement was not related to the Golden Age event. the purpose of the event is to honor the designs from the time frame and fly them in a friendly competition. No one is going to come away World Champion from flying this event, so everyone needs to just relax.

    Mike

    #55473
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    @mikeschwartz wrote:

    If someone wants to design and build a new design, this event is not for them. New designs can be flown in AMA classes. plans published in newsletters during the 1957 to 1969 time frame are allowed as long as they meet the guidelines. Be prepared to provide proof. The comment ” if you want to fly later designs you can enter AMA events” was taken out of context. That statement was not related to the Golden Age event. the purpose of the event is to honor the designs from the time frame and fly them in a friendly competition. No one is going to come away World Champion from flying this event, so everyone needs to just relax.

    Mike

    So this time frame had “builder of the model rule”…..is that in effect?
    Most clubs in this time frame had a “time one, fly one” rule too…….?

    #55474
    Nigel Tarvin
    Participant

    MikeM,
    Thanks for posting the your fathers Ephemeris story! My enthusiasm for this model just went up a notch! 🙂

    MikeS,
    I’m in the midst of major home renos at the moment and living in my workshop, so no building for a while…..especially doping! :mrgreen:
    I couldn’t make it down to Albany this year at all due to other commitments but hope to see you guys next year with a model or two for this event and a couple of new vintage FAI models (FAI Pussycat and FAI Vector Director).

    Cheers,
    Nigel

Viewing 15 posts - 31 through 45 (of 211 total)
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